"Romani children are experiencing the same frustration my grandfather felt a hundred years ago." – With Jana Horváthová on the need to talk about the Romani experience

Jana Horváthová, a historian, ethnographer, and director of the Museum of Romani Culture in Brno, has traveled a long road toward self-acceptance. Her famous family tradition—her grandfather was the first Romani university graduate in Czechoslovakia—led her to take an interest in both her own family history and the history of all Roma. In this interview, she opens up about her own upbringing and calls for a change in how we learn about Romani history.

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What led you to take an interest in Romani history?

To be honest, as a child, I was ashamed of it. From the moment I started school and other children began pointing it out, all the way through my university studies at the Faculty of Arts, where I majored in General History. In my second year, a classmate and friend a few years older than me—who is now the Dean of the History Department at the Faculty of Arts—Tomáš Knoz, said to me: "Janka, your professor, Ctibor Nečas, is looking for research assistants for Romani history and is actually researching your family, so maybe you'd like to help him."

Even though I felt ashamed when he asked me that, it kept playing on my mind. Eventually, I reached out to Nečas and started reading his articles, beginning with the ones about my family. We didn't talk about these things in such detail at home, and there was so much I didn't know, so a whole new universe began to open up for me.

That was when I realized I could embrace my heritage, and it actually started to excite me. From a historical perspective, I began focusing on my family's history, then I wrote my thesis on it, and from there, it expanded into a general interest in the Roma, both past and present.

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How did the people around you approach the topics of Romani history and culture before you began to pursue them professionally?

Our family, the Holomeks, always felt—thanks to what they had been through and what they had achieved—that they were a bit better, something more, almost like nobility among the Roma. So there was a strong sense of exclusivity that was always discussed within the family. But as for my childhood environment, at elementary school, the kids would shout at me: Gypsy! ...from the very first day. It was horrible for me. Jokes about Gypsies were common among the children. And I was ashamed because I had that famous Romani surname, Holomek. Our grandfather was well-known, he was written about in the newspapers, and I suffered terribly because of that famous Romani name. But my father didn't know about it at all. I complained to my mother the very first day I came home from school. Of course, she tried to help me. We'll dress you in a way that no one could think you're a Gypsy. We'll cut your hair, you won't wear any big earrings......just so I would fit in. I took it as a necessary evil that I had to endure.

There were also a lot of Roma in public spaces in Brno—back then, they were likely Vlax Roma who traded in Tuzex vouchers—and when you walked through the city center, you’d hear: "Vouchers, vouchers, do you want vouchers?" And because they considered me one of their own, they would speak to me in Romani, too. I never knew what to do. I always tried to run away.

That was how it was until I began to openly identify with it. I have to say that after I managed to do that, I felt a huge sense of relief, because I had been living in hiding and under such stress for so many years. My parents didn't know anything about that. To this day, I can't explain how a child's mind works.

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Do you think that if you had talked to your parents about it back then, they would have been a support for you?

I don't think they would have been able to at the time, because society was so hostile toward the Roma, and we didn't live in a Romani community where we could protect each other internally. We were already truly integrated, even assimilated, so apart from our own family, we had no contact with other Roma. So I don't think my parents would have been able to advise me. Our dad was just an adult; he wasn't ashamed of it at all, and psychologically, he wouldn't have been able to understand where I was coming from. He would sometimes say to me at home, "You're such a little monkey, it's going to take a while before you become a human being." He was joking, but a child takes that seriously.

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Was it common for Romani families to talk about the Holocaust?

From what I see even today, it is talked about in some way. But it remains very superficial because people only have information from their ancestors, and it is quite sparse. There is a general awareness that there was persecution, that they were hunted and beaten, but there is no factual knowledge at all. So, for young people, it makes sense to read about it in literature so they can anchor their understanding. Otherwise, it is just a vague awareness. Unless, of course, we are talking about families of Czech and Moravian Roma, like my own family, where stories of direct relatives who were lost during the war are passed down.

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Is it possible to identify any historical circumstances that led to this part of history being so marginalized?

Historically, certainly, because what happened to the Roma during the war was a consequence of the fact that the majority did not accept them; they were always outside the framework. So, when the Nazis began their racial programs of liquidation, the majority neither realized it nor perceived it, and they accepted it quite easily. And that continued after the war. Roma who returned from concentration camps found their property destroyed or occupied. The majority did not exactly welcome them, so it was clear they could not share their experiences with them. Moreover, these were deeply personal and sensitive experiences.

The Roma did not share these stories because no one was interested in them. They were not encouraged to do so. And Romani communities were not as advanced as Jewish ones, where there was historically a strong relationship with institutional education and the written word. It was easier for Jews to realize that sharing their experiences publicly could open the eyes of the majority. But the Roma remained closed off, and that sharing is only happening today, now that most of the direct participants are no longer alive.

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I understand that the Romani Holocaust is a crucial moment in history about which we lack education, but it is certainly not the first or last injustice committed against the Romani minority. Could you identify other moments of oppression that are rarely talked about?

Unfortunately, the history of the Roma on the European continent is one continuous thread of non-acceptance, the culmination of which was the Holocaust, but not only that. We can go back to the early modern period, when, starting from the end of the fifteenth century, Roma were being expelled from European countries. Mandates were issued stating that the presence of Roma, especially in the countries of Christian Europe, was not permitted. This lasted in the Czech lands until the mid-eighteenth century. Men and women were executed. It wasn't until Maria Theresa that the process of settlement began. But even in the nineteenth century, we see that the state apparatus and the gendarmerie acted quite radically against the Roma. It was not as if the Roma had the opportunity to put down roots and integrate. Settlement did happen, but more through struggle. Roma who wanted to settle had to fight for it themselves. And during the First Republic—that famous, democratic Czechoslovakia? It wasn't quite like that. The first piece of legislation regarding the Roma was passed, and it was the Law on Wandering Gypsies—it was discriminatory and even contradicted several articles of the constitution at the time, yet it was approved by parliament and signed by the president.

So, the period of the Protectorate followed directly from the First Republic. And immediately after the occupation of our country, the Law on Wandering Gypsies was applied very consistently. Therefore, even when action began to be taken against the Roma on a purely racial basis starting in the summer of 1942, the public did not perceive it as any radical change at all. And when the deportations to concentration camps took place in 1942, the municipalities saw that they were getting rid of "gypsies" and viewed it positively. But they didn't exactly know where those people were going. In the daily press, especially in the Moravian Slovácko region, where there were many Romani settlements, it was commented on very positively, stating that the municipalities were finally getting rid of the "gypsies."

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And regarding history after 1989, do you try to commemorate this period as part of your work?

Certainly, yes. It was a period when, after November 17th, the Roma very quickly joined the revolutionary movement and the Civic Forum to show that they were with them. They were looking forward to the freedom they did not have under communism. They believed that self-determination would come, that they would be able to develop. There was huge enthusiasm; the Romani Civic Initiative was founded, which initially had a huge number of members, and the whole society was excited. But this quickly faded; it very quickly became apparent that the public was biased against the Roma because, with the onset of market mechanisms, the Roma very quickly ended up among the unemployed. Low education and a lack of qualifications played a role there. So, the differences between the majority and the Romani minority began to widen. And overt expressions of racism manifested. The Roma were not protected against this in any way. During the first decade, there were dozens of racially motivated murders that were not properly evaluated by the courts.

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Why is it important to remember these things?

It is important for everything I have said. The public really did not realize it, and to this day, the majority still does not. I lecture quite a bit to adult audiences—various police officers, officials—and the knowledge is truly minimal. It leads to stereotypes. People have in their heads what they heard from their parents or grandparents, what they heard in the media, on television.

Stereotypes are very deeply rooted in our people. It has a huge influence that these things are not taught at all in our primary or secondary schools. If primary and secondary school students get any information, it is usually the grassroots effort of their teachers, who tell them about it beyond the mandatory curriculum and perhaps bring them to a program at our museum.

But our workplace is tiny, we have a small number of staff, and we can handle maybe two schools a day. So, it is just a drop in the ocean that reaches a few thousand students, but that is not enough.

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You often speak about the need to include topics related to the Romani Holocaust in the school curriculum. Is there any discussion about whether this might actually be achieved in the near future?

No one knows how it will turn out. Currently, a few other Romani studies enthusiasts and I are involved in updating the framework educational programs. But it’s more that we had to fight to get certain pedagogical experts to let us in on it. The entire update process is a massive machine where deadlines are constantly looming and changes are always happening. It’s very opaque, and none of us trying to get the Romani topic in there can guarantee that it will actually succeed.

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Do you think that if the curriculum better reflected topics related to Romani history, Romani children would feel better in schools?

That is one hundred percent true; I would stake my life on it. We know from testimonies, various witnesses, and other sources that Romani people experienced terrible frustration in schools. They learned nothing about their own history and culture, and if they did, it was only negative things. That frustration affects their relationship with school and how they feel there.

There are generations of Romani people who ran away from school, and generations of parents who urged their children: "You have to endure it at school, otherwise they'll take you away and put you in an orphanage." It’s very much a carbon copy of what children are experiencing today. These are the same stories that my grandfather lived through more or less a hundred years ago.

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What role does the Museum of Romani Culture play in this public awareness?

Well, I hope we are helping to improve things. Even though our impact cannot be anything fundamental, because we are in the role of raising awareness, and awareness works in the long term and is very uncertain. The most effective changes would be in education, the social system, and issues of employment and housing. We cannot influence those. We can influence people's thinking, but only those who come to us or attend our programs. So it is very limited, but I think the role of the Museum of Romani Culture is irreplaceable, especially considering that we are still the only museum of Romani people in the world. That is sad news to me, but it is the reality.

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What other initiatives in the Czech Republic are helping to change the public discourse?

There is so much going on here! I hope I don't forget anything. It is certainly excellent that Romani studies are being taught at a high level at Charles University; then we have the Kher publishing house for Romani literature, and organizations dedicated to preventing social exclusion like Romodrom and IQ Roma servis... There is so much, and that is a very good thing. But these are non-profits, and the impact of non-profits is truly limited. For example, I would really wish for Slovo 21 and its Khamoro festival to be permanently supported by the state. Slovo 21 has been doing truly excellent work for a long time, but as I said, I have surely forgotten many others. More secure funding would be needed, because we all know how it is. Society desperately needs this service. We just probably don't fully realize it, especially within the political ranks.

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This interview was created as part of the Survivor Stories project, supported by the Foundation Remembrance, Responsibility and Future (EVZ).

This text does not express the opinion of the EVZ Foundation. The author is responsible for all claims contained in this text.

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